Martin and Greg chat with Alan Roxburgh and Jenny Sinclair at the Leaving Egypt podcast. They discuss how the churches have been affected by modernity, and how mission needs to change. Sharing the disorientation they encounter among church leaders, they explore the tension between missiological scholarship and relationships with real people.

Alan J. Roxburgh is founder of The Missional Network, and a widely published, leading theologian and experienced pastor who has been shaped by the work of Lesslie Newbigin. Alan lives in Vancouver, Canada, though he grew up in Liverpool - a place that taught him to be suspicious of authority, and that the safest place is to be with people in the neighbourhood. He has always been in search of that belonging he found in Liverpool.

Jenny Sinclair is founder and director of Together for the Common Good, which explores how Catholic Social Thought can inspire vocation for the common good and offer guidance for spiritual and civic renewal. T4CG is an organic project engaging churches, leaders and young people across the churches. Jenny is the daughter of a bishop, which formed her to be suspicious of structures but equally to have sympathy for clergy. Jenny also has Liverpool connections, having lived there in her teens, and lives there now.